Preamble

The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions — ROYAL AIR FORCE

Swift Training Rifles

Mr. A. R. W. Low: asked the Secretary of State for Air how many Swift training rifles he has in use and how many in reserve.

The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. Arthur Henderson): None. Sir.

Mr. Low: Did not the Minister at one time have a very large number of these rifles, and what has he done with them since the end of the war?

Mr. Henderson: I should like to have notice of that question.

Airfields (Joint Use)

Mr. George Ward: asked the Secretary of State for Air how many airfields are being used jointly by the R.A.F. and the scheduled air line operators.

Mr. A. Henderson: Six airfields in the United Kingdom are in regular joint use by the R.A.F. and scheduled air line operators. In addition seventeen airfields are so used occasionally when bad weather necessitates diversions. Another 42 airfields are available for use by the R.A.F. and scheduled air line operators but are not so used at present.

Mr. Ward: Can the Minister give an assurance that these arrangements are working smoothly and without friction?

Mr. Henderson: Yes, Sir.

Instructors

Air-Commodore Harvey: asked the Secretary of State for Air how many civilian instructors in the R.A.F. have

been declared redundant in the last 12 months; and how the services of these men can be dispensed with at a time when the R.A.F. is short of trained Service personnel, many of whom will now have to be diverted to instructing duties.

Mr. A. Henderson: The number is 192. Since these men are surplus to requirements in their trades they will not be replaced by trained Service personnel.

Air-Commodore Harvey: Is the Minister satisfied that he is taking the correct action in getting rid of these men, who are most experienced and who have got their homes near the airfields? Surely, he could make good use of them when we are short of recruits?

Mr. Henderson: All these men belong to two trades—fitters and armourers—and it is in these trades that we have a surplus of trained and experienced noncommissioned officers. It would simply be a case of not making use of their services if we were to retain them.

Mr. Ward: If that is so, will the Minister say why it is that armourers are not allowed to buy themselves out of the Air Force today on the ground that they are supposed to be in short supply?

Mr. Henderson: I think that restriction on the right or privilege of purchasing discharge from the Service is not confined to any one particular trade but that, in recent months, by reason of the requirements of the air lift, the privilege has been restricted throughout the Service.

Mr. Ward: If armourers are not allowed to buy themselves out, will the Minister explain why the Air Force are paying off civilian instructors?

Mr. Henderson: I was not aware that there was a specific restriction on armourers only.

Air-Commodore Harvey: asked the Secretary of State for Air how many officers, other ranks, and civilians, respectively, are engaged in the technical training of air and ground trades; and what were the proportions between civilian and Service instructors in 1938, 1947 and 1948.

Mr. A. Henderson: Ten officers, 2,137 airmen and 707 civilians are employed on


these duties. I regret that records kept in 1938 do not allow the proportion of civilian to Service instructors to be determined; in 1947 it was 1 to 3.1 and in 1948 1 to 2.75.

Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the Secretary of State say what his policy is in this matter? Is he trying to get more civilians to help, or is he using men in uniform?

Mr. Henderson: The answer is that, as regards instructors, Service and civilian, after discussions with the Whitley Council representatives on the other side, it has been agreed that the proportion shall be 60–40, 60 Service, 40 civilian.

Pilot Officer (Release)

Mr. Swingler: asked the Secretary of State for Air for how long Pilot Officer F. H. Close has served in the Royal Air Force; on what date he is due for release; and whether he will be released on that date.

Mr. A. Henderson: Pilot II F. H. Close enlisted on 10th January, 1939. He is serving on a regular engagement and is not, therefore, subject to the release regulations for the Royal Air Force.

Reconnaissance Flights, Middle East

Mr. Austin: asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will give details in full of all material information, including photographs, which have been handed over to Egyptian Air Force Command following on R.A.F. reconnaissance; and under what authority this action was taken.

Mr. Platts-Mills: asked the Secretary of State for Air how many of the photographs taken in high and low level reconnaissance flights over the areas in which Israeli and Egyptian forces have been in conflict have been supplied to the Egyptian authorities.

Mr. A. Henderson: No material information or photographs obtained from either high or low level reconnaissance flights were handed over to the Egyptian authorities. I am informed, however, that on occasion photographic information was discussed with Egyptian officers because of the difficulty of obtaining

positive identification of Jewish ground forces in Egyptian territory.

Mr. Platts-Mills: As it is obvious from the Minister's answer that this photography was an act of intervention in the war—not, of course, the fault of the Minister, but set on deliberately by the Foreign Secretary—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order."]—and in view of the degree of anger now created by this reckless imperilling of human life, will the Minister use his influence to persuade the Foreign Secretary to cause our forces to be withdrawn from the danger area?

Mr. Henderson: The latter part of the question, I think, might be put to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary himself, but I would like to make it quite clear that I cannot accept any suggestion that there has been any intervention on the part of His Majesty's Government. Indeed, I said in the latter part of my reply that this information only related to the possible presence of Jewish forces in Egyptian territory and not to the positions of Jewish forces in Jewish territory.

Mr. Austin: As the discussions referred to by my right hon. and learned Friend, relating to certain identifications, may, according to the opinion of certain authorities, constitute an infringement of neutrality in some respects, will he give an assurance that such reconnaissance flights are no longer intended?

Mr. Henderson: No, Sir. I cannot give any guarantee as to the future, but what I can say is that we are not continuing such flights under present arrangements.

Mr. Platts-Mills: asked the Secretary of State for Air what notice was given to the Jewish authorities of the intention to carry out the 20 high-level reconnaissance flights made over Palestine in the last two months and of the routes proposed to be taken on these flights.

Mr. A. Henderon: No notice was given to the Jewish authorities.

Mr. Sydney Silverman: Has the attention of my right hon. and learned Friend been drawn to the denial by the United Nations Mediator of the statement on this subject which he made last week that


these reconnaissance flights were carried out with the knowledge of the United Nations Mediator?

Mr. Henderson: Yes, Sir, and I should like to make it clear that the consultations referred to regarding these flights took place with Count Bernadotte and not with Dr. Bunche, the Acting Mediator.

Mr. Low: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman make it clear whether these 20 high-level reconnaissance flights took place within the last two months—since the Mosquito was shot down—or whether they referred to something that happened earlier?

Mr. Henderson: They covered a period of November and December and overlapped the incident to which the hon. Gentleman refers.

Mr. Blackburn: asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will now state whether the R.A.F. Court of Inquiry convened to inquire into the circumstances in which 3051236 Pilot Officer David Crossley Tattersfield lost his life will be open to the public; and whether facilities will be given to the parents of Pilot Officer Tattersfield to be represented.

Mr. A. Henderson: It would not be in accordance with practice for such a Court of Inquiry to be held in public. As regards the second part of the question, the head of the Royal Air Force legal branch in the Middle East Command will be attending the Court, and he will watch the interests of the next-of-kin.

Mr. Blackburn: May I ask the Secretary of State whether he does not feel that this is a very special case? Will he bear in mind the fact that conflicting statements have been made about this particular subject, and, while he may stick to this principle that the inquiry may not be held in public, will he see that a very full summary of the evidence and of the findings of the court is published? Will he also see that the interests of the next-of-kin are properly protected by somebody who will look after them?

Mr. Henderson: In regard to the second part of the question, I can say that the answer is in the affirmative. Regarding the first part, I would rather wait until I have seen the report, but I am prepared to give an undertaking that a full

summary of both the evidence and the findings will be published.

Mr. William Teeling: Am I to understand that this inquiry concerns only Pilot Officer Tattersfield, and, if so, why is it not to include the son of my constituent—Pilot Officer Sayers. who was also killed?

Mr. Henderson: The court of inquiry itself will cover a number of cases; and, as regards the arrangements for this senior officer to represent the next-of-kin, he would certainly include the next-of-kin of all those who were casualties.

Mr. Teeling: But is the Minister aware that the father of Pilot Officer Sayers has been quite unable within the last few weeks to obtain any information whatever about the death of his son, and is not that a case for this inquiry?

Mr. Henderson: No, Sir. I am surprised that that should be the case, and if the hon. Gentleman will give me the particulars I will look into the matter at once.

Mr. Blackburn: Will the Minister ask the court to inquire especially into one fact—whether the allegations made by Pilot Officer Close, which have received such widespread publicity throughout the world, are true or not, because I do not believe they are true, nor do the parents, and it is most important that the people should know the truth?

Mr. Henderson: I can say that the terms of reference will certainly cover that point.

Mr. Austin: asked the Secretary of State for Air what reconnaissance operations by the R.A.F. are taking place in conjunction with, or at the request of Transjordan forces.

Mr. A. Henderson: None, Sir.

Mr. Janner: Can my right hon. and learned Friend say whether, in view of the decision of the Security Council, there will be any flights over Transjordan?

Mr. Henderson: I can only say, in reply to this Question, that the answer is "None, Sir."

Mr. Austin: asked the Secretary of State for Air if he will make a statement giving full details of dates, areas, etc., in


which R.A.F. and Egyptian aircraft have partaken in joint formation flights, since the ending of the Palestine Mandate.

Mr. A. Henderson: Egyptian aircraft accompanied R.A.F. aircraft on the two reconnaissances carried out on 30th December, 1948, referred to in my statement on 19th January. No other flights with the Egyptian Air Force have taken place.

Mr. S. Silverman: If these aeroplanes of ours were taking part in flights accompanied by Egyptian aircraft, is my right hon. and learned Friend surprised that people on the other side regarded them as belligerents?

Mr. Henderson: No, Sir. In view of the fact that R.A.F. aircraft were flying over Egyptian territory with aircraft belonging to the Government of that territory, I can see no justification for that assumption.

Mr. Janner: Can the Minister say whether there was a reconnaissance flight on 7th January, whether any Egyptian planes accompanied our aircraft on that flight, and why, after there was an agreement between the Egyptian and Israeli forces for a cease-fire, the flight was allowed on that date?

Mr. Henderson: The answer to the first part of the question is that no Egyptian aircraft accompanied R.A.F. aircraft on the reconnaissance flight that took place on 7th January. As regards the second part, I have been informed by the Commander-in-Chief that he was not aware of the proposed truce until 8th January.

Mr. Platts-Mills: Can the Minister say what was the object of our aircraft flying in company with Egyptian planes at all; and may I assist him to answer by suggesting that the real reason was to give cover to the Egyptians while they took hostile action?

Mr. Henderson: I see no reason at all to object to the joint flight that took place late in December between aircraft of the R.A.F. and Egyptian aircraft, and, indeed, if the position had been reversed and we had had our planes based on Jewish territory, I can see no objection

to them flying with Jewish aircraft over Jewish territory.

Mr. Gallacher: Will the Minister tell the House in what direction these planes were flying? Was it in the direction of Israeli territory? Will he say whether the Israeli authorities were supposed to wait until they came over Israeli territory before they took action?

Mr. Henderson: It is not for me to say what the Jewish authorities were supposed to do. All I can say is that the various tactical reconnaissances took place over Egyptian territory, not Jewish territory.

Mr. R. A. Butler: In view of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's answer that the Air-Officer Commanding-in-Chief was not aware of the truce, can we have any statement from His Majesty's Government whether a signal was sent from this country indicating that a truce had taken place and so informing the Air Officer Commanding?

Mr. Henderson: I think we may take it that no signal was sent in view of the fact that the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief has informed me that he was not aware of the truce.

Mr. Butler: Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman regard it as his duty to keep closer contact with Air Officers Commanding on the spot?

Mr. Henderson: I had no official information myself on the 7th that the truce was to take place.

Mr. S. Silverman: In view of my right hon. and learned Friend's somewhat original notion of tactics, will he undertake that if ever this country is attacked by hostile aircraft the Royal Air Force will not be expected to wait until they arrive over our territory.

Mr. Speaker: That is a purely hypothetical question.

Mr. Janner: Arising out of the reply which has been given about this lack of knowledge of the cease-fire, will my right hon. and learned Friend say whether any intimation was given at any time from his Department or from any other Department when a settlement was made which necessitated the stopping of any aggressive action?

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL AVIATION

Flight Refuelling (Tests)

Air-Commodore Harvey: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation how much money has been spent on experiments and test flying dealing with the refuelling of aircraft in the air; and what is his policy for the future regarding this method of refuelling.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (Mr. Lindgren): Flight refuelling has been under development for a number of years and it would be difficult to state the total cost, but during the last three years, £570,000 has been spent on trials, carried out for civil aviation purposes. In deciding future policy my noble Friend will be guided, among other things, by the views of the Corporations in the light of recent operational trials on the North and South Atlantic routes, the results of which are still under examination by all concerned.

Air-Commodore Harvey: As this form of flight refuelling has been going on for some 12 or 14 years and large sums of money have been well spent on it, will the hon. Gentleman ask the Corporations to make up their minds whether they can utilise the information which is now available?

Mr. Lindgren: Yes, Sir. The economics of the operation, so far as the experiments themselves are concerned, are satisfactory. The inquiry now concerns the economics of the operation in relation to scheduled services.

Mr. Erroll: Will the Minister take into account the known hostility of B.O.A.C. towards this development, which will make it possible for them to make use of British aircraft when at present they prefer to use American aircraft?

Mr. Lindgren: I think that is a very unfair insinuation. The pilots who fly these aircraft have a right to be heard in connection with an operation which they think has some risk associated with it.

Colonel J. R. H. Hutchison: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the money which has been expended falls on his Ministry or on the Corporation?

Mr. Lindgren: No, Sir. On the Ministry of Supply.

B.O.A.C. Services (Malta)

Mr. Lennox-Boyd: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation whether it is his policy that B.O.A.C. should use Rome instead of Castel Benito and Malta.

Mr. Lindgren: British Overseas Airways Corporation land-plane trunk services to the East and to South Africa are being progressively withdrawn from Castel Benito in fulfilment of the Corporation's long standing plan to serve Rome which is one of the most important traffic centres in Europe. British Overseas Airways Corporation will, for the time being, continue to operate through Malta with Lancastrian aircraft. When replacement aircraft are available a service adequate to meet traffic requirements between Malta and the East will be operated if proving flights through Malta indicate that the aerodrome is operationally satisfactory.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd: Does not the hon. Gentleman's answer mean that Malta is being abandoned in favour of Rome and that the temporary abandonment of Malta in favour of Castel Benito was done deliberately because it would have been hard to reconcile the people of Malta to losing their airport in favour of the Rome airport, from which they were so often bombed?

Mr. Lindgren: No, Sir. There is no foundation for that statement.

Squadron-Leader Kinghorn: Could my hon. Friend say whether the Maltese Government have been kept informed of B.O.A.C.'s programme and also, whether the services to Malta are adequate?

Mr. Lindgren: Yes, Sir. 130th the noble Lord and myself have visited Malta. We have had discussions with the Governor, the Prime Minister and other Ministers of the Maltese Government and they are fully informed of B.O.A.C.'s short-term and long-term programmes. In reply to the latter part of the question, Malta is better served today through British European Airways than at any previous time in the history of the air services of the island.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd: In view of the great anxiety in Malta and this country


and of the uncertainty of the position, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter at an early date.

Italian Airlines (Payments)

Mr. Lennox-Boyd: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what sums were paid to Italian airlines by B.O.A.C. and B.E.A. during 1948; and what subsidies were given to Italian airlines during 1948.

Mr. Lindgren: Payments in the ordinary way of business are a matter of management. The only payment outside this category during 1948 was the subscription by British European Airways Corporation of £133,854 for additional shares in Alitalia, as was disclosed in paragraph 22 of the Corporation's Report for 1947–48. No subsidies have been paid by the United Kingdom to this or any other Italian airline.

Internal Services (Airports)

Mr. Ward: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation how many civil airports without Customs facilities, for the use of internal services only, are maintained; and at what annual cost.

Mr. Lindgren: None, Sir.

Mr. Teeing: Does that mean that if aircraft come from abroad and land by accident in this country it is impossible for people to be cleared?

Mr. Lindgren: The Question asked what aerodromes in this country, which are used only for scheduled services, are without customs facilities, and the answer was, "None, Sir."

Runways, Prestwick

Colonel J. R. H. Hutchison: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation what is the latest position regarding modernisation of runways at Prestwick.

Mr. Lindgren: Runway strengthening to enable Prestwick to take aircraft of Stratocruiser weight was completed in December, 1948.

Colonel Hutchison: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the local authorities complain that the lack of information as to

what the plans are for the modernisation of the runways at Prestwick, is at the present time holding up housing schemes?

Mr. Lindgren: Lack of definite knowledge, yes, Sir. An engineering survey has taken place; consultation is taking place with local authorities in the area in connection with the construction of a third runway. The only lack of information is in respect of the siting of this third runway, but we hope that the issue will be clear at the end of this month.

Edinburgh—London Service

Mr. Willis: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation if he will give the date on which it is proposed to resume the Edinburgh—London air service.

Mr. Lindgren: I am informed by British European Airways Corporation that the service is to be resumed on 1st April.

Mr. Willis: Can my hon. Friend say whether it will be once daily or twice daily?

Mr. Lindgren: There will be 12 services weekly—that is, twice daily on six days a week.

Mr. Spence: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether this service terminates at Edinburgh or whether it will be continued to Aberdeen?

Mr. Lindgren: No, Sir; it terminates at Edinburgh.

Mr. Hector Hughes: Is the Minister aware that there is a strong body of public opinion in Aberdeen which desires a resumption of the air service?

Mr. Speaker: The hon. and learned Member is out of Order.

Mr. Vane: Can the Minister say whether this air service will stop anywhere in the North of England to pick up passengers?

Mr. Lindgren: No, Sir. It is a direct service between London and Edinburgh.

Mr. Scollan: Can the hon. Gentleman tell the House what saving there is in having to send a 20-seater bus from Turnhouse airport, Edinburgh, to Renfrew with one passenger, for the purpose


of putting him on the Glasgow to London plane? It is obvious there are more losses than gains.

Mr. Lindgren: My information is entirely different from that of the hon. Member.

Mr. Scollan: That is my experience.

Mr. Lindgren: My information about transport between Renfrew and Turn-house, Edinburgh, is that it is by private car; but if the hon. Member has any different information, I will go into it.

Mr. Hector Hughes: Would you be so kind as to tell me, Mr. Speaker, whether you ruled my supplementary question out of Order, and, if so, why?

Mr. Speaker: The hon. and learned Gentleman asked a question about Aberdeen. This is a Question about the service from Edinburgh to London. I did not know that Aberdeen was part of Edinburgh.

Mr. Hector Hughes: May I draw your attention to the fact that the air service from Aberdeen to London used to call at Edinburgh and it was with that relevance that I asked my supplementary question.

Mr. Speaker: I was not to know that, anyhow.

Leased Aircraft

Mr. Ward: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation how many aircraft, and of what types, are leased by his Department to B.O.A.C., B.E.A.C., B.S.A.A.C. and to private enterprise operators, respectively; what are the terms on which these aircraft are leased; and what loss is suffered as a result of these leases after taking into consideration the capital cost and depreciation.

Mr. Lindgren: British Overseas Airways Corporation's 18 Solents, of which 12 have been delivered, are on lease; terms of hire are now being negotiated. Sixteen aircraft of three types are leased to other operators; the terms vary; but are designed to cover the capital cost, together with interest on capital, spread over the normal life of the type. The capital costs incurred by my Department on these 16 aircraft are £584,000, and the sum receivable for hire in the current financial year is about £119,000. It would

be undesirable to publish details of terms arranged with individual operators, and it is impossible to say, until the hire arrangements are terminated, whether any loss will be incurred.

Mr. Ward: Without having had time to think about those figures, it does seem—will the hon. Gentleman explain why it is?—that these aircraft which are leased have a capital cost of something like £400,000.

Mr. Lindgren: No, Sir. In round figures the capital cost is £500,000, and the annual hire charge is £100,000, which means that the capital is repaid in five years.

Sir Waldron Smithers: Who gives permission before this money is spent? Will the hon. Gentleman draw these figures to the attention of the Public Accounts Committee?

Mr. Lindgren: We are not spending money. We are earning it.

North Atlantic Base, Filton

Mr. Geoffrey Cooper: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Civil Aviation, what is the date by which it is expected that the transfer of the B.O.A.C.'s North Atlantic base to Filton will be completed; and what is the total cost in dollars being expended in the United States and Canada for the operational expenses incurred there since October, 1945.

Mr. Lindgren: The transfer of the British Overseas Airways Corporation's North Atlantic base to Filton was virtually completed by 31st December, 1948, although it will, of course, be some time before the new base is fully effective. From 1st October, 1945, to 30th September, 1948, total operating expenditure by the Corporation in American and Canadian dollars (excluding capital expenditure) was approximately 22 million dollars.

Mr. Cooper: Does my hon. Friend realise that I have been following this matter up for over three years, that the Corporation has procrastinated and resisted this transfer, which would have saved us millions of dollars, largely on the advice of their Atlantic division manager, who seems to have more concern for his empire building than for


the national interest? What steps does my hon. Friend propose to take to prevent a recurrence of this sort of thing, when men of that calibre are left in positions of responsibility in the Corporation?

Mr. Lindgren: We are watching the position very closely indeed in conjunction with the chairman and chief executive of B.O.A.C. If my hon. Friend has gathered any information and will pass it on we shall be pleased to receive it and to consider it.

SUDAN (FEMALE CIRCUMCISION)

Sir Basil Neven-Spence: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any information regarding the increase or decrease in the Sudan in recent years of the custom of female circumcision.

The Minister of State (Mr. McNeil): I regret that I have no precise information. I am assured, however, that the legislation passed in 1926 and the subsequent propaganda have checked this repulsive and harmful practice. Progress, however, in the face of such a long established tradition is regrettably, if necessarily, slow.

Sir B. Neven-Spence: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many of the thousands of circumcisions that have taken place since the legislation was passed in 1945 have been under an approved Government process or a milder type of operation?

Mr. McNeil: My recollection is that there was not a governmentally approved process. It is true that one rather milder process was recommended, but I regret that I have no precise figures of those affected by this operation.

Mr. Wilson Harris: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the newly created Legislative Council is concerning itself in any way with the elimination of this revolting practice?

Mr. McNeil: Yes, Sir, I am quite sure that the existing Council is conducting effective propaganda, mainly by instruction in girls' schools, by health visitors and maternity visitors—and dealing with the superstitions held about this practice.

Dr. Segal: Has the right hon. Gentleman also consulted the opinion of the most expert anthropologists before deciding on any course of action?

Mr. McNeil: There was an expert committee set up before which several expert anthropologists gave evidence about the traditions and causes of this belief.

Mrs. Leah Manning: Is there any way in which my right hon. Friend can give voice to the abhorrence that is felt in this civilised country against this very obscene custom practised on young female children?

Mr. McNeil: The opinions of experts and people of humanitarian sympathies in this country have already been given some circulation in the Sudan. I have no doubt that this short discussion will be given publicity and will be helpful.

Sir B. Neven-Spence: As my information about the spread of this revolting practice differs from what the right hon. Gentleman has said, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

Oral Answers to Questions — GERMANY

Illegal Trading

Sir Waldron Smithers: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will give an estimate of the extent of illegal exchanges of goods and currency between the Western and Russian zones in Germany; and the resultant loss to the British Exchequer.

Mr. McNeil: I regret that I am unable to give the estimate asked for, but I have no doubt that illegal transactions are considerable. I have no reason to suppose that they result in loss to the British Exchequer.

Sir W. Smithers: Is it not obvious that the encouragement of these black market operations by the Russians is part of their plan to sabotage the recovery of Western Europe? What active steps can the British Government take to stop them?

Mr. McNeil: I cannot follow that that is obvious at all. The operations are taking place in circumstances in which


the Eastern mark is at a discount of four to one to the Western mark. The advantage must lie with the Western people.

Reparations Deliveries (U.S.S.R.)

Major Guy Lloyd: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why reparation deliveries of capital equipment to the U.S.S.R. from the British zone of Germany are continuing; and how many Soviet dismantling commissions are still working in the zone.

Mr. Dodds-Parker: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what shipments of reparations to the Soviet Union from the British zone of Germany are at present taking place; whether the British zone is at present receiving any reciprocal deliveries from the Soviet Union; and whether, in view of the blockade in Berlin, His Majesty's Government intend to continue such shipments to the Soviet Union.

Mr. McNeil: My right hon. Friend is examining this whole question, which has many ramifications.

Major Lloyd: That may well be, but is the Minister aware of the fact that hundreds of thousands of people in this country, without any regard to their political views, are amazed that, in view of the Potsdam Treaty, the Berlin blockade and the hostile propaganda, we should still be delivering stuff to Russia as a result of the Potsdam Agreement? What defence can the Minister possibly put up for this ridiculous situation?

Mr. McNeil: I agree that strong opinions are held about this subject, but I do suggest that the argument is not one-sided, and that there is a considerable return which we may have for this trade. I do promise that our attitude is being considered at this very moment.

Mr. R. A. Butler: Will the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the answers to Questions on a recent occasion and expedite the examination of this subject so that we may have an immediate answer which satisfies my hon. Friends on this side of the House and the House generally?

Mr. McNeil: I cannot promise that the answer will be immediate. It will be given as soon as possible. I hope

that it will satisfy hon. Gentlemen opposite, but I cannot promise that either.

Mr. S. Silverman: As what is concerned in this Question is reparations, that is to say, the making good of damage done during the war, will my right hon. Friend take care, when our policy is considered, to remember, first, that we made an agreement about this matter, and that we usually keep our agreements, and secondly, that in the late war it was the Soviet Union and not Germany that was our Ally.

Mr. John Hynd: Before my right hon. Friend replies, and in reference particularly to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), may I ask him, as these deliveries are supposed to be in return for reciprocal deliveries from the East, what assurance have we that we shall in fact receive those reciprocal deliveries?

Mr. McNeil: I am anxious to avoid controversy on this subject. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because it is a complicated one, not easily disposed of by question and answer. The truth is that since the blockade we have had the first instalment of reciprocal deliveries. In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), while I appreciate the point he has made, and while we shall bear it in mind, this is not a simple, straightforward transaction affecting reparations. We are under an obligation to deliver 25 per cent., 15 per cent. of which they must repay.

Major Lloyd: As not even the Minister is in the least satisfied with his reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter again at the earliest opportunity on the Motion for the Adjournment.

Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will now give an assurance that no part of the equipment dismantled from the Krupps' Works will in any circumstances be handed over to the Government of Czechoslovakia, whether as a member of the Inter-Allied Reparations Agency, or for any other reason.

Mr. McNeil: No, Sir.

Mr. Thorneycroft: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that full consideration will be given to whether anything should be sent out to Czechoslovakia? Would he agree that it is exactly the same as sending it to Russia and could we have an undertaking from him that consideration will be given to both these matters in a statement made to the House before any further equipment is sent to Czechoslovakia?

Mr. McNeil: The second question of sending plant to Soviet Russia or the Soviet German zone, I would prefer to separate, for reasons which I have offered. On the question of Czechoslovakia, we are bound by agreement, into which we freely entered in 1946, which refers to all the I.A.R.A. Powers, and I am sure that the House would agree that it would be unfortunate and unfair if we used our position as an occupying Power to go back on that promise.

Mr. Thorneycroft: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to tell the House that despite everything that has happened since Potsdam—I am not going to enumerate them all, including Berlin—we are to go on sending potential armaments over the frontier to Czechoslovakia.

Mr. Blackburn: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that it is a Foreign Office defence in relation to this matter of protests, that protests today to any of these countries are quite futile. The only way that we can hope, I submit, to get our word accepted by the Soviet Union or its satellites is to take effective action.

Mr. Molson: If it is any use asking the Minister any supplementary questions on this point, will he answer this one? Has any change taken place in the attitude of our Government towards Czechoslovakia since the coup d'état in February last?

Mr. McNeil: Yes, Sir.

Mr. R. A. Butler: Can the right hon. Gentleman give the assurance that the same early consideration will be given to this subject as he promised in the case of an earlier Question about reparations to Russia?

Mr. McNeil: I should obviously be stupid and unfair if I did not agree to bring this to the attention of my right hon. Friend, but while I volunteered the promise in the case of the other one,

because of submissions which had already been made to me, I do not want to promise that there is the same likelihood of a readjustment on this subject as upon the other one. However, I gladly agree that it should be reviewed.

Mr. P. Thorneycroft: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why he stated to the hon. Member for Monmouth in answer to a Question on the 20th September last that no equipment from Krupps' Works at Essen had been sent to the U.S.S.R. during the previous 12 months when substantial quantities of such equipment had been sent and were still being sent to that country.

Mr. McNeil: The information given to the hon. Member on 20th September was correct; no equipment has been sent to the U.S.S.R. from the Krupps' Works in Essen. The only deliveries of equipment from the Krupps' complex to the U.S.S.R. have been made from the works at Borbeck which, I am assured, is a separate plant situated five miles from Essen.

Mr. Blackburn: Will the Minister give an assurance that no deliveries of any kind will be made to the Soviet Union so long as the present blockade of Berlin continues?

Mr. McNeil: No, Sir. I have already indicated in response to two other Questions that this subject is being reviewed.

Mr. Charles Williams: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is grave dissatisfaction throughout the country, and a feeling that far too much is going to Russia at the present time that might be used against us in a future war?

Mr. McNeil: The amount of stuff going to Russia with which these Questions are concerned, is negligible.

Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister aware that there is a feeling throughout the country that there is too much anti-Soviet propaganda on the part of the Tories in this House?

Control Commission (Expenditure)

Mr. Scott-Elliot: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what was the estimated expenditure on coal for the


use of the C.C.G. during 1948; and how much of this was in the form of gold dollars.

Mr. McNeil: There was no sterling or dollar expenditure on coal for the use of the Control Commission, since the necessary supplies were obtained on requisition from the Germans. The second part of the Question does not, therefore, arise.

Mr. Scott-Elliot: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what was the cost in dollars of petrol used by the C.C.G. during the first six months of 1948; and what was the comparable figure for 1947.

Mr. McNeil: For the first six months of 1948 the approximate cost of petrol used by the Control Commission for Germany was £233,386. A comparable figure for the first six months of 1947 is not available. For the last six months of that year, however, it was £270,307. I regret that it is not possible to say precisely how much of this expenditure was in dollars.

Mr. Scott-Elliot: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he anticipates a present reduction?

Mr. McNeil: My noble Friend has been constantly in touch with this subject, and his figures disclose that there has been a reduction, which. I hope, may be sustained.

Mr. Scott-Elliot: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many of the C.C.G. administrative staff were employed in the Zeco area on 1st December last, and what was the comparable figure for 1947.

Mr. McNeil: The numbers employed in the Zeco area in administering the Control Commission were 1,297; and 1,446, respectively.

Mr. Scott-Elliot: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this area contains a large number of small houses and small offices which are very wasteful both in fuel and petrol owing to the fact that meetings have to be held in some central place, requiring officials to go there in cars in order to attend the meetings.

Soviet-Controlled Radio Station

Major Lloyd: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in view of

the fact that the Soviet-controlled radio station in the British sector of Berlin is being fortified, what action His Majesty's Government proposes to take.

Mr. McNeil: It would seem an exaggeration to describe the radio building as being fortified. Some ground-floor windows are being fitted with shutters or bars, presumably to guard against any demonstration of the general hostility which the people of Berlin feel towards this radio station and its broadcasts. I do not think any action is called for on the part of His Majesty's Government.

Major Lloyd: The people of Berlin may well feel that way. There are surely a lot of people in this country who feel the same. How does the Minister justify the fact that a Soviet-controlled radio station, pouring out the most bitter anti-British and anti-American propaganda, should be allowed to continue at all in the British zone; and would anything of a corresponding kind be allowed in their zone? Is not the whole thing a fantastic piece of funk and appeasement?

Mr. McNeil: I have no reason to believe that this radio station is anything but a help to us. On the question of appeasement, I will not pit my information against that of the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

Mr. Bramall: Is it not a fact that an almost equally contradictory situation exists by reason of the fact that the Soviet authorities supply the electricity by which the Gatow Airport works?

Refugee Organisations

Mrs. Leah Manning: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware of the revisionist activities of such organisations as the Interessengemeinschaft der Ostvertriekenen within the British zone of Occupation in Germany; and what steps the authorities are taking to make clear to these organisations that their subversive political activities will not be tolerated.

Mr. McNeil: Responsibility for licensing and controlling all German refugee associations in the British zone has been handed over to the German authorities. The stated aims of such organisations as that mentioned in the Question do not


appear to conflict with Military Government policy and, on the basis of the evidence at present available, my right hon. Friend sees no justification for intervening. I am nevertheless willing, as has been stated in replies to Questions on this subject by my hon. Friend, the Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeffington-Lodge), to examine any evidence that these organisations are indulging in undesirable political activities.

Mrs. Manning: Has not my right hon. Friend already received ample evidence that this organisation is indulging in revisionist activities, is he not aware that if this is allowed to go on we shall reach very great difficulties later, and would it not be better to put a stop to it now while it is young?

Mr. McNeil: I cannot agree that I have had evidence, or at least ample evidence. However, following a Question put by the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeffington-Lodge), my noble Friend did cause representations to be made to one of these organisations urging great care upon them.

Mr. Bramall: Is it not a fact that in evidence which the hon. Member for Bedford and I sent to my right hon. Friend there was included a statement by this organisation itself, that it was revisionist.

Mr. Molson: As regards the central revisionist propaganda, it is still the case, is it not, that the British Government do not regard as permanent the existing frontier of Eastern Germany?

Mr. McNeil: I do not see how that arises. It is true that the British Military Government have a policy, and it would obviously be stupid to permit propaganda tending to destroy that policy.

B.F.E.S. Schools (Fees)

Mrs. Manning: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that children of non-entitled parents are charged the fee of £23 6s. 8d. for elementary schooling in B.F.E.S. Schools; and if he is prepared to revise this figure for the current term and from now on.

Mr. McNeil: This charge is being made for the current term. The amount

is already under review, and if it is found to be too high in relation to the costs incurred, it will be adjusted, as will the charges for future terms.

Mrs. Manning: As my right hon. Friend knows, these non-entitled parents were, in the first instance, included in an entitlement list and all the children are British children—very few in number—and is not the idea of charging £23 for elementary education fantastic?

Mr. McNeil: I am surprised to hear that they were first of all included in any list of non-entitled parents, and if my hon. Friend will let me have the information I shall be very glad indeed to look at the subject again.

Scientific Instruments (Exports)

Mr. Erroll: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the current rate of export of scientific instruments from the Bizone of Germany.

Mr. McNeil: The nearest comparable headings in the Bizonal trade returns are optical instruments and apparatus, indicating, recording and controlling instruments, professional and scientific instruments. Total exports under these headings were £732,740 in the first ten months of 1948.

Mr. Erroll: In view of the alarming threat which this increase in exports represents to British exports, will the Minister investigate the under-cutting which is taking place with the clandestine agreement of J.E.I.A.?

Mr. McNeil: No, Sir.

Berlin (Conditions)

Mr. Nigel Birch: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any statement to make about the circulation of the Eastern mark in the Western sectors of Berlin.

Mr. McNeil: Not at present, Sir.

Mr. Birch: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the grave currency chaos and black market activities in Western Berlin, and does he recognise how damaging these are to the industry and morale of the people there?

Mr. McNeil: I must admit, of course, that there is great maladjustment and complication, but as the hon. Gentleman


doubtless knows, a committee of experts is at present considering this subject, and my right hon. Friend would not consider that a statement at this time would assist that committee.

Mr. Birch: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the household fuel ration of coal for space heating in the Western sectors of Berlin; and to what extent that ration is being honoured.

Mr. McNeil: Because of the blockade, it has not been possible to make a regular issue of coal or firewood for domestic heating in the Western sectors of Berlin this winter. A total of 27,000 tons of coal has been issued in rations varying from one quarter to one and three-quarter hundredweight according to circumstances of households. In addition every household has received about two hundredweight of wood. There is also a regular distribution of one quarter of a hundredweight of coal per month for cooking purposes made to all households which have neither gas nor electricity laid on for cooking.

Mr. Birch: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many persons are unemployed and how many persons are working short time in the Western sectors of Berlin.

Mr. McNeil: 120,969 persons are unemployed, and 63,607 are working short time in the Western sectors of Berlin.

Mr. Birch: Do not the answers to these three Questions indicate a steadily deteriorating condition in Berlin, and does the right hon. Gentleman think it at all likely that the Russians will lift the blockade as long as we go on delivering things to Russia and the countries behind the iron curtain?

Mr. McNeil: I do not see that I am asked to reply that the morale of the German people in our zone of Berlin will be increased by denying them any rations at all.

Mr. J. Langford-Holt: Is it the policy of the Government to work on the assumption that the Berlin blockade can be continued indefinitely?

Mr. Vane: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what conversations he is now holding with the U.S.S.R.

with a view to their lifting the prolonged blockade of Berlin; and what progress he can report.

Mr. McNeil: None, Sir. As the House knows, the discussions which were in progress last summer were suspended because the Soviet Commander-in-Chief, on instructions from his Government, refused to abide by the directive agreed upon in Moscow, and the Berlin situation was thereupon referred to the Security Council.

Mr. Vane: Does the reply of the right hon. Gentleman mean that it is believed there is no hope?

Oral Answers to Questions — ARGENTINA

Buenos Aires Transport Corporation

Mr. William Teeling: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply he has now received from the Argentine Government to the British Ambassador's protest concerning the position of British shareholders in the confiscated Buenos Aires Transport Corporation; and what further steps he is taking.

Mr. McNeil: No reply has yet been received to the representations addressed to the Argentine Government last year, and the Argentine Government have not yet announced the terms on which the Buenos Aires Transport Corporation is to be liquidated. Until these terms have been announced, it is of course impossible to judge whether a formal protest would be justified. I can however assure the hon. Member that His Majesty's Ambassador has more than once emphasised to the Argentine Government the importance attached by His Majesty's Government to fair treatment of the British shareholders.

Mr. Teeling: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask him if he can give any information whether in the negotiations that are going on in the Argentine with regard to the Andes Agreement and so forth, this matter will be further definitely considered, as I understand it was to have been if Senor Miranda had come to this country?

Mr. McNeil: There is another Question on the Paper asking about Senor Miranda's visit.

Senor Miranda (Proposed Visit)

Mr. Teeling: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in view of the fact that Senor Miranda did not come to this country on 10th January as previously announced by the Minister of State, when he is likely to come here.

Mr. McNeil: Senor Miranda has given no further indication of the date on which he would propose to visit this country.

Mr. Teeling: In view of that reply, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he can give us any information whether this question will be discussed in the negotiations which, I understand, are to take place because Senor Miranda is not coming here?

Mr. McNeil: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would put that Question down.

BETTING (ROYAL COMMISSION)

Mr. Nally: asked the Prime Minister if he has yet come to any decision as to the advisability of setting up a Royal Commission to inquire into all forms of off-the-course betting, with special reference to the football pool industry.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): Yes, Sir, and I hope to be able to make an announcement very shortly.

TERRITORIAL ARMY (RECRUITING SPEECHES)

Mr. Vane: asked the Prime Minister whether he will arrange that the selection of His Majesty's Ministers to take part in the series of recruiting speeches for the Territorial Army to be given over the B.B.C. will be made only from those who have themselves seen active service as members of His Majesty's Armed Forces.

The Prime Minister: No, Sir.

Mr. Vane: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that these appeals would have a much greater effectiveness if those making them, like the right hon. Gentleman, had themselves had some

experience of those rather special duties which they are urging others to undertake?

The Prime Minister: Not necessarily. I think it is advisable that authoritative speeches on this subject should be made by Members of the Government who hold particular responsibilities.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In view of the national character of this appeal, is it intended to confine these broadcasts to Ministers, or will invitations be extended to Members of other parties?

The Prime Minister: That is another question; perhaps the hon. Member will put it down.

Vice-Admiral Taylor: Does the Prime Minister really consider it advisable to have pacifist Members of the Government asking for recruits?

The Prime Minister: No one has suggested that they should.

INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH (INFORMATION)

Mr. Cobb: asked the Lord President of the Council what further action will be taken to bring to the notice of the smaller firms in industry the result of research work being carried out in the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and in research associations.

The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): The action being taken is a steady expansion of the existing methods of getting information across to the smaller firms. These include articles in technical and trade journals, leaflets and pamphlets written in simple language, films, exhibitions, local conferences and personal visits. It is one of the principal tasks of the Intelligence Division of D.S.I.R. Headquarters to ensure that these methods are used to the best advantage so that the expert knowledge and advice of the establishments of D.S.I.R. may be available to all who seek them. Similar methods are used by the research associations.

Mr. Cobb: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that perhaps other methods might prove a little more fruitful, and will he consider employing a small number of technical specialists for the purpose of visiting these factories and


explaining these new methods to the people on the spot?

Mr. Morrison: Such a service, though. possibly, not as extensive as my hon. Friend would wish, is available from the research associations, and the cost of belonging to them is quite limited. However, I do not disagree with what my hon. Friend is aiming at, and I will do what I can to see that this development takes place.

Mr. Edgar Granville: Does the Lord President's answer mean that all governmental research which is available to the large nationalised industries will also be available to the small production units in this country?

Mr. Morrison: Governmental research is not specially carried out for the benefit of the nationalised industries. It has always been undertaken for the benefit of industry as a whole, and that is still so. We would not be guilty of such improper discrimination.

Mr. Osborne: Would the Lord President agree that most small firms have been taking full advantage of the facilities offered, and are running quite efficiently at the present time?

Mr. Morrison: I think it is the case that many small factories are being very well run, but the small factory owners are always willing to learn more, and we are willing to assist them in that direction.

Oral Answers to Questions — ARMED FORCES

Auxiliary Forces (Annual Bounty)

Wing-Commander Hulbert: asked the Minister of Defence if he will now make a statement about the proposed increased bounty for the Auxiliary Forces.

The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander): As the hon. and gallant Member is aware, the Auxiliary Forces' maximum annual bounty was increased from £8 to £12 in August last year, and the greater part of it can now be paid at the end of camp. No further increase is contemplated at present.

Releases (Civilian Clothing)

Mr. Lipson: asked the Minister of Defence if he will provide for National Service men the new clothes they require for civil life, in view of the fact that many are not financially able on demobilisation to pay for them and have outgrown those they had before.

Mr. Hurd: asked the Minister of Defence if, in view of the prolonged service now required from National Service men enlisted between 1st January, 1947, and 31st December, 1948, he will restore for them the release benefits, including a civilian suit, provided for other National Service men called up since 1945.

Mr. Alexander: I would refer the hon. Members to the reply I gave yesterday to the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt).

Mr. Lipson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his reply is most unsatisfactory, and that there is a feeling in the Services over this matter that many of the men when demobilised are not able to afford to buy their clothes, and that their parents are not in the position to buy them for them?

Mr. Alexander: No, Sir. This policy was announced a very long time ago. It has been in existence since January, 1947, and in view of the whole of the circumstances, economic and financial, it is not proposed to revise it.

Mr. Austin: Will my right hon. Friend look at this matter from a commonsense point of view. Is he not aware that when a youth goes into the Armed Forces and engages in a healthy outdoor life for a year or 18 months, his physique is bound to alter, and his old clothes will no longer fit him? That being so, is it not reasonable for the Government to provide a suit for him on demobilisation?

Mr. Alexander: It has already been announced in previous statements that certain items of clothing can be purchased cheaply. In addition, 60 coupons are issued for the purpose of obtaining new clothes.

Mrs. Jean Mann: In view of the fact that the price of a gentleman's suit has so greatly increased, together with the fact that these men have had three months' extra added to the contract


without their consent, or even without their being consulted, is it not the least that the Government can do to give them a suit when they are demobilised?

Mr. Shurmer: Will the Minister consider that certain articles of clothing should go free to these men? It is a question of a suit of clothes. What is the good of 60 coupons if the men have no money with which to buy these clothes?

Mr. Alexander: All I can say is that the Government have considered this matter very carefully, but they do not propose at present to revise this policy.

Mr. Lipson: In view of the unsatisfactory and unsympathetic reply, I beg to give notice that I shall take an early opportunity of raising this matter on the Adjournment.

PERSONAL STATEMENT

Lord John Hope: On a point of Order. I rise with your permission, Mr. Speaker, to correct a mistake that was made in the Debate on the Adjournment yesterday, a mistake made, I am sure quite inadvertently, by the hon. Member for East Islington (Mr. E. Fletcher) to whom I have endeavoured, I am afraid unsuccessfully, to give notice of this matter. He said, and he is reported at column 848 of HANSARD as follows:
I think the country should know that apart from the literature which the Government sent to America through British Information Services they also arrange for a series of visits by Members of Parliament, to

tour the United States from time to time, and that those visits are not confined to Members from the Labour benches, but include visits by Members from the Opposition benches. The noble Lord himself"—
that is referring to me—
is one of the Members who have been selected since this Government have been in power to go to America to explain what is happening in Britain, and he was given a perfectly free hand in doing so."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th January, 1949; Vol. 460, c. 848.]
I am afraid that at the time I did not realise the import of what the hon. Member was saying. It is, of course, quite inaccurate to suggest that, and I want to say to the House that I was in no way indebted to the Government for my visit to the United States last year.

Oral Answers to Questions — BILL PRESENTED

TENANCY OF SHOPS (SCOTLAND) BILL

Lord John Hope: "to make provision with regard to tenancies of shops in Scotland," presented by Mr. Woodburn; supported by the Lord Advocate, the Solicitor-General for Scotland, Mr. Thomas Fraser and Mr. J. J. Robertson; read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 49.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Lord John Hope: Proceedings on any Motion for the Adjournment of the House moved by a Minister of the Crown exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House) for One hour after Ten o'clock.—[The Prime Minister.]